So, have things gotten better or worse?
Date: June 11, 2003
To: PFIC Message Board
From: Paul Grunion
Subject: How to avoid a DF&G citation
The GW controversy has prompted me to do a little preaching the gospel according to DF&G. There are four items that you need to have with you when you are fishing to avoid a DF&G citation.
1. Knowledge of the law. Because of the increasingly complex nature of the angling regulations, the best way to do this is to have a copy of the regs with you. When the new ones come out each year, be sure to look for changes regarding the fish you fish for and the associated species you might catch. You are taking a big chance asking advise from that old-timer down the pier, unless he has a current copy with him. He might not have read the regs in years, if at all.
2. Knowledge of where you are. This might sound silly but regulations change based on geography and if you don't know if you are north or south of Pt. Sur you might have an over limit of Cal halibut. It is more critical in fresh water, where you could be fishing on the south fork of the Trinity river and not know it without studying a map.
3. Knowledge of the species identification of the fish you catch and the fish you might catch. There is a couple hundred species of fish along our coast and many have specific regulations. The best way to learn the fish is to do what birders do. Get a field guide to Pacific coast fishes, and study it. Go through it looking for fish you have caught and learn how to thell them apart from their relatives and other similar looking fishes. Look up the fishes with regulations you might catch, and learn their characteristics. Go to public aquaria and use the guide to identify the local fish you see there. Practice identifying fish you do know with the guide, while you are waiting for the next bite.
4. A measuring device. Carry a ruler at least 28 inches long in case you catch a white sea bass. I recommend that you mark your fishing rod with tape or put a winding of thread at eye level on your fishing rod. put and another mark 12 inches closer to the butt, and 22 inches if you can. When you catch a fish with one of those size limits, hold the fish against the rod with the "nose" at the top mark and raise the rod and fish to compare the tail to the lower mark. This way you can release short fish right away before they hit the deck, or need more handling.
By following this advice you won't be faced with the tough decision of what to do when you catch a beautiful seven pound fish that one guy tells you is a seatrout, another says is a white sea bass, it might be over the legal 28 inches, you don't know if it has a closed season, etc. When you have these doubts, you have to release it to be safe from the embarrassment of a citation.
May all of your meetings with Wardens be pleasant ones!
If you want to understand my perspective, please read my profile.
Posted by surfcaster
And carry a picture id in case a warden decides to harass you like a blond 5'5" jerk warden did to me at Montara Beach. Even though I had the license properly displayed above my belt and was using only one rod and not possessing any fish.
Posted by Red Fish
Knowledge that's the word —#3 mainly. Have some idea of what you are doing when you go fishing (a plan) before hand. O.K.- if your a newbie, no big deal. Still, you are going fishing for rest and relaxation. O.K., still you might ask yourself a few basic questions. 1.) Do I need a license? 2.) And secondly, along with that license, don't some rules apply? 3.) (If) I catch something, what do I intend to do with it?
Now, that comes down to the part about what species of fish are available and what am I targeting if anything? What never ceases to amaze me is that people will catch, keep and eat fish that they can't even identify. I can just see someone now eating the eggs of a scorpionfish and going belly up.
Paul, I feel that people that want to know the rules and play by them (as simple as they may be) will seek this information. You have this whole other category of people that fish on public piers and the delta in this area that are unaware of any rules at all. I blame DF&G partially for this because of the lack of signage at the fishing locale, and anywhere where tackle or bait is sold amongst other things.
Posted by Sinker
Good Info - Even if California is Backwards. Good advice Paul Thanks, Surfcaster I hear ya.There are always good and bad agents. California is one of the most non-friendly sportsman States I have ever lived in or visited. Some California regulations make absolutely no sense either. Like displaying your fishing license above your waist but you hunting license can be in your wallet - HELLO - why is California different from most other States. Display your hunting license on your back, with the license being hunter orange, that way a game warden isn't going to walk up to you to ask for your license and spoke your prey away, they just use binoculars and there ya go, after the kill then go check for tags. Fishing license display, why? If they come up and ask for it they are not going to spook your fish away, when asking for it they can ensure your are using the proper amount of rods and check your catch, plus then anglers can always have their license with them so as they are driving home and see a spot that looks fishy they can just pull over and go for it.
The regulations do not state anything about having to have ID but you are right, every time but once that I have been asked to show my fishing license they then ask for my Drivers License to verify that it is really me I guess. So I have to display my stupid license (which my the way cost me more than a full years Non-Resident Fishing license in Florida) but then still have to dig out my drivers license from my wallet - yeah makes a lot of sense to me. DOH. Think I will go bang my head on the wall some more....
Posted by Sinker
This is what happens when you stay out till 4am Fishing and then have to get up at 7. So no I need to learn how to type and spell as well
or maybe take a nap.
Posted by pierhead
I agree... I think the real reason for the display above the waist requirement is to prevent the warden from having to physically approach you ... if you made the effort to display chances are it is a valid license and therefore not worth their time in checking it out in person. On the other hand if there is no display then they certainly are justified time-wise in climbing down to the beach to further investigate and possibly generate a little revenue for the department. Facts of life.
Makes sense to me ... given how much territory they have to cover in a day. What doesn't make sense in this day and age of budget crisis is why they aren't more aggressive on piers ... lots of revenue can be generated from multi-pole and poaching violations. Its been said that local judges are too forgiving and generally side with the violator ... perhaps if UPSAC did a little educational outreach on the piers there would be less chance of getting a pass by claiming ignorance of the law? Pierhead
Posted by Paul Grunion
Wardens on piers. Most of the time all a Warden gets out of a trip to a pier is a nice walk. If a uniformed Warden starts down a pier, the word spreads ahead; short fish are thrown back and extra lines reeled in. Rebecca Hartman told me she went plain-clothed one time and an angler told her that the @$#$%#$^ Warden's car was in the parking lot so to be careful.I know, she should have driven the personal car or parked far away, but I am just relaying the problem.
Posted by pescare
Wardens on piers. Even so, if they would do it consistently there would be a deterrent effect. Word would spread that the pier is patrolled and at least a portion of the violators would quit. Just like when we slow down when seeing a cop sitting in his car. Ed
Posted by anadromous
"If a uniformed Warden starts down a pier, the word spreads ahead; short fish are thrown back and extra lines reeled in." Better than if they don't show up at all.
Posted by Paul Grunion
Having a visible license. The DF&G always gets heat for this but it was not their idea. The idea was proposed by a large recreational fishing organization, which will remain nameless. They said that if anglers wore the license visible, the Wardens would see who was complying with the license regs. This is not so, because the Warden will ask you to take it out of the holder to see if you have the proper stamps and see if the description fits. The idea was forced on the DF&G by the group saying that the visible license would make nearby anglers realize that they should have one, and peer pressure would force them to buy one. The Department argued that they didn't think it would help enforcement and the public would be upset, but the nameless sportsman’s group was united in their pressure, saying that if the Commission did not adopt it they would tell the press that the DF&G refused an income generating suggestion.
The fastest way for a Warden to match the license with the angler is the driver's license but it is not a requirement. I personally witnessed an angler, being interviewed by a Warden, slip a license to his buddy. The Warden interviewed the second guy and said, "So it says here that your name is Mary and you are 5 foot 2." The embarrassment led to two tickets instead of one. Mary's husband got one for passing the license to his buddy. Paul
Posted by Sinker
Funny Story. So the F&G Commission actually bowed to a Large Recreational Fishing Organization. Were in the heck were they when they started closing down the fishing grounds and determining months of take for the shore and pier anglers as well. Hmmmm, guess they don't represent the Pier and Shore guys, maybe they weren't even saltwater affiliated - I wonder. Paul I wish I knew what you know...
Posted by pescare
Love it Paul "but the nameless sportsman’s group was united in their pressure" Wink, wink. Ed
Posted by Paul Grunion
Nudge, nudge...Say no more. Say no more.
Posted by pescare
Don't forget a current copy of the regs.
Posted by Songslinger
And How About DFG Knowing The Laws, Too?
Posted by pescare
That's why we need our own copy - to defend.
Posted by bigfoot
And we need it on 1 January, not some time in April
Posted by Paul Grunion
There is a printing lag time which prevents publishing Jan 1 but in the future I hope the final version will appear on the DF&G web site during the first week in January. The problem is that in the regulation setting procedure, the final version is decided in December. It used to be that the regulations did not take effect until the end of March. Only recently, with the Federal groundfish regulations being effective January 1, has there been any problem printing them in time. Paul
Posted by nigeria butler
Good advice all.
Posted by gordo grande
Thanks for posting this great advice!
Date: June 11, 2003
To: PFIC Message Board
From: Paul Grunion
Subject: How to avoid a DF&G citation
The GW controversy has prompted me to do a little preaching the gospel according to DF&G. There are four items that you need to have with you when you are fishing to avoid a DF&G citation.
1. Knowledge of the law. Because of the increasingly complex nature of the angling regulations, the best way to do this is to have a copy of the regs with you. When the new ones come out each year, be sure to look for changes regarding the fish you fish for and the associated species you might catch. You are taking a big chance asking advise from that old-timer down the pier, unless he has a current copy with him. He might not have read the regs in years, if at all.
2. Knowledge of where you are. This might sound silly but regulations change based on geography and if you don't know if you are north or south of Pt. Sur you might have an over limit of Cal halibut. It is more critical in fresh water, where you could be fishing on the south fork of the Trinity river and not know it without studying a map.
3. Knowledge of the species identification of the fish you catch and the fish you might catch. There is a couple hundred species of fish along our coast and many have specific regulations. The best way to learn the fish is to do what birders do. Get a field guide to Pacific coast fishes, and study it. Go through it looking for fish you have caught and learn how to thell them apart from their relatives and other similar looking fishes. Look up the fishes with regulations you might catch, and learn their characteristics. Go to public aquaria and use the guide to identify the local fish you see there. Practice identifying fish you do know with the guide, while you are waiting for the next bite.
4. A measuring device. Carry a ruler at least 28 inches long in case you catch a white sea bass. I recommend that you mark your fishing rod with tape or put a winding of thread at eye level on your fishing rod. put and another mark 12 inches closer to the butt, and 22 inches if you can. When you catch a fish with one of those size limits, hold the fish against the rod with the "nose" at the top mark and raise the rod and fish to compare the tail to the lower mark. This way you can release short fish right away before they hit the deck, or need more handling.
By following this advice you won't be faced with the tough decision of what to do when you catch a beautiful seven pound fish that one guy tells you is a seatrout, another says is a white sea bass, it might be over the legal 28 inches, you don't know if it has a closed season, etc. When you have these doubts, you have to release it to be safe from the embarrassment of a citation.
May all of your meetings with Wardens be pleasant ones!
If you want to understand my perspective, please read my profile.
Posted by surfcaster
And carry a picture id in case a warden decides to harass you like a blond 5'5" jerk warden did to me at Montara Beach. Even though I had the license properly displayed above my belt and was using only one rod and not possessing any fish.
Posted by Red Fish
Knowledge that's the word —#3 mainly. Have some idea of what you are doing when you go fishing (a plan) before hand. O.K.- if your a newbie, no big deal. Still, you are going fishing for rest and relaxation. O.K., still you might ask yourself a few basic questions. 1.) Do I need a license? 2.) And secondly, along with that license, don't some rules apply? 3.) (If) I catch something, what do I intend to do with it?
Now, that comes down to the part about what species of fish are available and what am I targeting if anything? What never ceases to amaze me is that people will catch, keep and eat fish that they can't even identify. I can just see someone now eating the eggs of a scorpionfish and going belly up.
Paul, I feel that people that want to know the rules and play by them (as simple as they may be) will seek this information. You have this whole other category of people that fish on public piers and the delta in this area that are unaware of any rules at all. I blame DF&G partially for this because of the lack of signage at the fishing locale, and anywhere where tackle or bait is sold amongst other things.
Posted by Sinker
Good Info - Even if California is Backwards. Good advice Paul Thanks, Surfcaster I hear ya.There are always good and bad agents. California is one of the most non-friendly sportsman States I have ever lived in or visited. Some California regulations make absolutely no sense either. Like displaying your fishing license above your waist but you hunting license can be in your wallet - HELLO - why is California different from most other States. Display your hunting license on your back, with the license being hunter orange, that way a game warden isn't going to walk up to you to ask for your license and spoke your prey away, they just use binoculars and there ya go, after the kill then go check for tags. Fishing license display, why? If they come up and ask for it they are not going to spook your fish away, when asking for it they can ensure your are using the proper amount of rods and check your catch, plus then anglers can always have their license with them so as they are driving home and see a spot that looks fishy they can just pull over and go for it.
The regulations do not state anything about having to have ID but you are right, every time but once that I have been asked to show my fishing license they then ask for my Drivers License to verify that it is really me I guess. So I have to display my stupid license (which my the way cost me more than a full years Non-Resident Fishing license in Florida) but then still have to dig out my drivers license from my wallet - yeah makes a lot of sense to me. DOH. Think I will go bang my head on the wall some more....
Posted by Sinker
This is what happens when you stay out till 4am Fishing and then have to get up at 7. So no I need to learn how to type and spell as well
or maybe take a nap.Posted by pierhead
I agree... I think the real reason for the display above the waist requirement is to prevent the warden from having to physically approach you ... if you made the effort to display chances are it is a valid license and therefore not worth their time in checking it out in person. On the other hand if there is no display then they certainly are justified time-wise in climbing down to the beach to further investigate and possibly generate a little revenue for the department. Facts of life.
Makes sense to me ... given how much territory they have to cover in a day. What doesn't make sense in this day and age of budget crisis is why they aren't more aggressive on piers ... lots of revenue can be generated from multi-pole and poaching violations. Its been said that local judges are too forgiving and generally side with the violator ... perhaps if UPSAC did a little educational outreach on the piers there would be less chance of getting a pass by claiming ignorance of the law? Pierhead
Posted by Paul Grunion
Wardens on piers. Most of the time all a Warden gets out of a trip to a pier is a nice walk. If a uniformed Warden starts down a pier, the word spreads ahead; short fish are thrown back and extra lines reeled in. Rebecca Hartman told me she went plain-clothed one time and an angler told her that the @$#$%#$^ Warden's car was in the parking lot so to be careful.I know, she should have driven the personal car or parked far away, but I am just relaying the problem.
Posted by pescare
Wardens on piers. Even so, if they would do it consistently there would be a deterrent effect. Word would spread that the pier is patrolled and at least a portion of the violators would quit. Just like when we slow down when seeing a cop sitting in his car. Ed
Posted by anadromous
"If a uniformed Warden starts down a pier, the word spreads ahead; short fish are thrown back and extra lines reeled in." Better than if they don't show up at all.
Posted by Paul Grunion
Having a visible license. The DF&G always gets heat for this but it was not their idea. The idea was proposed by a large recreational fishing organization, which will remain nameless. They said that if anglers wore the license visible, the Wardens would see who was complying with the license regs. This is not so, because the Warden will ask you to take it out of the holder to see if you have the proper stamps and see if the description fits. The idea was forced on the DF&G by the group saying that the visible license would make nearby anglers realize that they should have one, and peer pressure would force them to buy one. The Department argued that they didn't think it would help enforcement and the public would be upset, but the nameless sportsman’s group was united in their pressure, saying that if the Commission did not adopt it they would tell the press that the DF&G refused an income generating suggestion.
The fastest way for a Warden to match the license with the angler is the driver's license but it is not a requirement. I personally witnessed an angler, being interviewed by a Warden, slip a license to his buddy. The Warden interviewed the second guy and said, "So it says here that your name is Mary and you are 5 foot 2." The embarrassment led to two tickets instead of one. Mary's husband got one for passing the license to his buddy. Paul
Posted by Sinker
Funny Story. So the F&G Commission actually bowed to a Large Recreational Fishing Organization. Were in the heck were they when they started closing down the fishing grounds and determining months of take for the shore and pier anglers as well. Hmmmm, guess they don't represent the Pier and Shore guys, maybe they weren't even saltwater affiliated - I wonder. Paul I wish I knew what you know...
Posted by pescare
Love it Paul "but the nameless sportsman’s group was united in their pressure" Wink, wink. Ed
Posted by Paul Grunion
Nudge, nudge...Say no more. Say no more.
Posted by pescare
Don't forget a current copy of the regs.
Posted by Songslinger
And How About DFG Knowing The Laws, Too?
Posted by pescare
That's why we need our own copy - to defend.
Posted by bigfoot
And we need it on 1 January, not some time in April
Posted by Paul Grunion
There is a printing lag time which prevents publishing Jan 1 but in the future I hope the final version will appear on the DF&G web site during the first week in January. The problem is that in the regulation setting procedure, the final version is decided in December. It used to be that the regulations did not take effect until the end of March. Only recently, with the Federal groundfish regulations being effective January 1, has there been any problem printing them in time. Paul
Posted by nigeria butler
Good advice all.
Posted by gordo grande
Thanks for posting this great advice!