Cultural Differences On CA Piers And Attitudes Towards Fish.

Fishman Fishman

Well-Known Member
#1
I had a recent experience at Seal Beach pier that made me think about how fish are treated by fisherman, with different cultural backgrounds.

Scenario - I arrived early in the morning at pier. Two fisherman, a man and his teenage son, were already fishing and had caught 11 Thornback Rays. The fish were thrown on the pier deck in a large semi circle around the fisherman. This sight admittedly annoyed me. There was an active Thornback bite and as I looked at this carnage, the fisherman were each reeling in more Thornbacks and dumping them on the pier deck.

They didn't know what the fish were but, they planned on eating them. Long story short, after we "discussed" the identity of the fish( I used the PFIC website) and my encouragement to return the fish to the ocean. They threw all the Thornbacks back and left. (That was not my intention and I did feel bad that they chose to leave.)

As they were leaving I noticed they had caught a Leopard shark pup. It was about 9 inches long and kept in a plastic gallon bag filled with sea water. I identified the shark for them via the PFIC website and pulled out my measuring tape to the 36 inch mark. Through "discussion" I convinced them to release the shark. They did and left the pier.

These fisherman had one fishing pole each, some bait, and pliers. No bucket or container to store anything they caught, no apparent extra fishing tackle, etc. In summary, my humble opinion, they were not very experienced and or knowledgeable about CA pier fishing. But, they had rudimentary skills to catch something.

The entire experience has stayed with me until I decided to write about it. So many questions in my mind.

Should I have intervened? Should I have told them to return the fish? Should I have commented to them how they were treating the fish? Should I have imposed my personal belief not to eat this particular fish? What will I do the next time I see something like this? Does the 20 fin fish limit apply to Thornback Rays?

At the pier I wondered if there were existing laws about treatment of fish by fisherman. I don't believe there is.

In reality, they were entitled to keep the Thornback Rays they caught. I am very comfortable with my intervention of the undersized Leopard shark.

So does all this boil down to cultural differences and accepting the fact that California piers are literally melting pots for fisherman of different cultures. And we, as "native" fisherman, must learn to: 1) Accept different perspectives on treatment of legally caught fish. 2) Do our best to educate all fisherman about rules and regulations regarding CA laws and hope for compliance. 3) Accept that fish we deem inappropriate to eat and normally return to the sea. May infact be quite edible and tasty when prepared a certain way.

In hind sight, I could have handled the situation differently. I hope the men return to fish again and bring with them some type of container to store any fish that can be legally kept.

This old pier rat definitely still learning something at each pier fishing opportunity.

Good luck everyone and continued positive pier experiences.
 
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#2
I had a recent experience at Seal Beach pier that made me think about how fish are treated by fisherman, with different cultural backgrounds.

Scenario - I arrived early in the morning at pier. Two fisherman, a man and his teenage son, were already fishing and had caught 11 Thornback Rays. The fish were thrown on the pier deck in a large semi circle around the fisherman. This sight admittedly annoyed me. There was an active Thornback bite and as I looked at this carnage, the fisherman were each reeling in more Thornbacks and dumping them on the pier deck.

They didn't know what the fish were but, they planned on eating them. Long story short, after we "discussed" the identity of the fish( I used the PFIC website) and my encouragement to return the fish to the ocean. They threw all the Thornbacks back and left. (That was not my intention and I did feel bad that they chose to leave.)

As they were leaving I noticed they had caught a Leopard shark pup. It was about 9 inches long and kept in a plastic gallon bag filled with sea water. I identified the shark for them via the PFIC website and pulled out my measuring tape to the 36 inch mark. Through "discussion" I convinced them to release the shark. They did and left the pier.

These fisherman had one fishing pole each, some bait, and pliers. No bucket or container to store anything they caught, no apparent extra fishing tackle, etc. In summary, my humble opinion, they were not very experienced and or knowledgeable about CA pier fishing. But, they had rudimentary skills to catch something.

The entire experience has stayed with me until I decided to write about it. So many questions in my mind.

Should I have intervened? Should I have told them to return the fish? Should I have commented to them how they were treating the fish? Should I have imposed my personal belief not to eat this particular fish? What will I do the next time I see something like this? Does the 20 fin fish limit apply to Thornback Rays?

At the pier I wondered if there were existing laws about treatment of fish by fisherman. I don't believe there is.

In reality, they were entitled to keep the Thornback Rays they caught. I am very comfortable with my intervention of the undersized Leopard shark.

So does all this boil down to cultural differences and accepting the fact that California piers are literally melting pots for fisherman of different cultures. And we, as "native" fisherman, must learn to: 1) Accept different perspectives on treatment of legally caught fish. 2) Do our best to educate all fisherman about rules and regulations regarding CA laws and hope for compliance. 3) Accept that fish we deem inappropriate to eat and normally return to the sea. May infact be quite edible and tasty when prepared a certain way.

In hind sight, I could have handled the situation differently. I hope the men return to fish again and bring with them some type of container to store any fish that can be legally kept.

This old pier rat definitely still learning something at each pier fishing opportunity.

Good luck everyone and continued positive pier experiences.
You did what you should have. That behavior disgusts me and more than you can count, I’ll talk .... to the people abusing fish or regulations, especially small halibut. Some high and mighty shark fishermen went over the line at the pier and left a half dozen shark on the hot concrete including baby leopards. I chose to contact F&G that happened to be at wetlands, he came down and taught those bozos a lesson. Fines will curb their destruction. They even talked .... to the F&G. Mistake in Seal Beach. I always get after the idiots that keep a full cooler of baby macs, smelt etc with zero ice or ways of keeping the fish fresh. Keep on with your thinking and acting. It can only help.
 

Ken Jones

Administrator
Staff member
#3
You did right! This site has tried to teach ethical angllng over the years and I have heard from many anglers who changed their behavior in response. Sometimes people don't know the rules but sometimes they just don't care. All we can do as ethical anglers ourselves is to try to teach the regulations and correct behavior (as you were doing). Some will learn, some will not but at least we have tried. Unfortunately there will always be some knuckleheads. [By the way PFIC has sometimes been attacked for preaching ethical angling and basically told to mind our own business. But, we are not just moral busybodies trying to tell people what to do, we care about the sport and everything involved in the sport including the environment and the fish.]
 

Ken Jones

Administrator
Staff member
#4
By the way, I don't think it's a cultural thing. I've seen just about every racial and ethnic group do really bad things while fishing and just about every racial and ethnic group do really good things. I think it's primarily the way you are brought up by your parents and it's really different family to family.
 
#5
We are not cops or DFW wardens. No one appointed us to be the unpaid vanguards of pier ethics. Most pier fishers are regulars and you have to interact with them time and again. In today's violent climate it makes no sense to mind other people's business. Is it worth it to risk slashed tires or broken windshields? I think not. Those who retort that they'd pay back the thugs are thugs themselves. It is a punk's cycle of stupidity and there is more than enough of that. Best not to get up in people's faces. No one here is remotely a saint and we do not need martyrs to the cause of angling.
 

TheFrood

Well-Known Member
#6
I agree with The Happy Wanderer. I'll call cal tip or something but I am definitely not going to interact with a completely unknown person if they are doing something sketchy. Last thing I want is someone's bait-knife in my gut.

If they look friendly and seem to be doing something out of ignorance I may talk to them, but I won't be critical and will leave them to make their own decisions. Likewise for under-size fish. If I see someone keeping a fish that is under size out of ignorance I might mention that there are certain size requirements on some fish and tell the story of the people I saw in SF that got caught with a bucket of about 30 underside dungeness INSIDE the SF bay, that got hit with about $25k in tickets for that one offense (Was a ticket of $800 per crab at the time I think).
 

Ken Jones

Administrator
Staff member
#7
I interact with pier anglers all the time and so far haven't been attacked. However, you do need to offer information in a friendly, non-threatening manner. Did you know is not a bad opening line. If you're rebuffed or it appears the people are unfriendly at that point then stop, don't escalate the situation.
 
#8
From reviewing the regulations, since Thornback Rays are not specifically mentioned, the daily bag limit is 10 per person. I have kept Thornbacks before (although I wouldn't recommend it due to the amount of work required to clean the fish and the minimal meat it produces), and I've seen other anglers doing so. I don't understand why they kept the Leopard Shark in a bag, but not the rays (maybe to put it in an aquarium), but it was good to intervene with the shark, especially since it was being kept alive. I know that Leopard Sharks are sold on the aquarium trade, and I'm kind of suspicious that was the reason they kept it alive instead of throwing it on the deck like the rays.
 

Ken Jones

Administrator
Staff member
#9
The leopard shark was illegal, plain and simple. As for the thornbacks, there is a reason why we call them "throw 'em backs" — not enough meat to justify keeping them.
 

bassfanatick

Well-Known Member
#10
Been there done that, I have talked to people because I care, next time just leave it up to game warden to do the biz, the fault is squarely at the state level for not hiring enough officers to take care of our water.
 

moonshine

Well-Known Member
#11
I was raised by a mom who survived the war in Okinawa. To her, fishing served a purpose, to put food on the table.
I don't think she ever got used to me releasing anything I'd caught. Still, she softened over time.
 
#13
You did the right thing. Good on you.

I think the lack of knowledge as newbies was, the reason for their action and not a cultural behavior.

Some piers are frequented by criminal elements, so it is wise to be careful.
There are not enough wardens to patrol the piers, so we should do what we can if the conditions are safe.

Approach as friendly and make suggestions and not threats.
 
#14
Thanks to everyone for sharing comments. My take away from this discussion is everyone should try to be the best steward possible based upon their abilities and personality.

As a fisherman I believe there is an inherent responsibility to be a positive steward of the natural resources that I pursue (fish) and a positive steward of the public resources (pier) I use, to the best of my ability, and in a safe responsible manner.

Good luck on all of your future fishing adventures. 🎣