Since we are now ethical anglers, one and all,
shouldn’t we all be able to come up with some good regulations?
shouldn’t we all be able to come up with some good regulations?
Date: January 3, 2002
To: PFIC Message Board
From: mobilesuit
Subject: You know what would be nice? Our own little regs.
Hey guys, do you know what I think would be kinda nice? If the really experienced fishers here could kind of share or make up some modified fishing regs that we could follow or keep in mind. In my opinion, if I take as many fish as the regs allow these days I feel like I am hurting the fishery. I understand that probably the best regs would be to catch and release all fish but I’m the type that kind of likes to eat what I catch. I’m sure there are others that are like that too. But yea... I’m thinking that there can be simple limits made that make sense. Perhaps one legal hallie a day… or 2 bass a day… these are just numbers that I’m just saying in random. I’m also thinking that there can be specific limits made that take into account the fish spawning size and what not. I was reading the Fish Trap lures site and they were talking about how not to keep the trophy-sized bass for they spawn… and to take the smaller 12-13 inch ones. Then perhaps a good rule is to take no more than 2 bass that are 12-13 in only. This is just an example. Again, I’m just trying to give some sort of example with numbers. I’m sure that there are lots of things to take into account and stuff like that. I was just thinking that I’d be kind of cool if there could be some regs the readers on the site can keep in mind. I think it would make rookies like me more knowledgeable without having to have to learn from mistakes from the past, and other benefits like that. What do you guys think?
Posted by lucy
Better idea. How about cracking down on commercial fishing? How about prohibiting the sale of fish caught in California waters to the gluttonous overseas markets? How about requiring DFG to halt commercial fishing of a species BEFORE the numbers drop to crisis levels—instead of waiting until the commercial fishery has nearly killed off the species and THEN imposing harsh restrictions on the sport fishermen who didn't cause the problem in the first damn place?
Posted by Frenchy
I think that would cause conflict due to the fact that opinions vary between each person here. The opinions of the members on this board vary greatly from what I have read. Some are strictly catch and release, some keep everything they catch. I like to think I am somewhere in-between. This summer I have caught, and kept, limits of fish on some trips. Other trips I have released every fish I have caught. I think setting personal limits is very important. Setting up regs on this board for members to follow would just cause problems. Again, say you set the limit of Calico Bass to 2. Maybe I go out tomorrow and keep a full 10 limit. Some people would say I was bad because I did not follow the “Board Regs.” Even though say the two trips before and after this one I released 10 bass each trip. That would average out to 2 fish a trip. Personal limits are the key. Personally I do not keep more then I will eat in 1 or 2 meals. Occasionally I will keep limits, and have a BBQ with family or friends. It is good to set personal limits to help out, but until the commercial fisherman are stopped, you releasing a fish or keeping it really wont matter one way or another. Remember commercial fisherman take 98% of all fish caught (Maybe 90% if you don’t include baitfish). Just read Mola Joe's post regarding the Totuava, once the commercial fisherman took over they wiped them out of existence. Even if every recreational fisherman took limits on each trip down there. the fish would not be almost extinct, like they are now. Same story with rockfish, halibut, white seabass, and most other highly sought after fish! It's all perspective. Andrew
Posted by stinkyfingers
GENUIS!! Ken, are you reading this? LONG POST. “There comes a time in every man's life where he chooses his destiny and seals his fate.” —stinkyfingers, just now... Mobilesuit: You just thought of an incredible thing, and I'd like to add to it, if that's cool. Again, I'm glad I logged on at home because I'm in the right mood right now. Here are the ideas that jumped into my head:
#1: Instead of calling it “rules.” which people tend to have negative vibes with, let's call it a “pledge” of honor. Yeah, let's all take an oath, pending a majority rule agreement and sensibly imposing self-regulations, where we all vow to abide by the rules we set forth in our pledge.
#2: This “pledge” will contain a very well developed pamphlet that specifically deals with fish, by species by photos, and it will outline exactly when those fish spawn, what all the regs on them are, and exactly what OUR version of WHAT IS RIGHT is (we can work on that in another thread). A quick, and easy-to-read interpretation of the DFG rules as well, dated so you know when the “null” times are.
#3: The pledge would contain a section where we all swear to respect nature and the living things around us. That means we all pledge never to waste fish, never to trash any piers, and never do things that just plain WRONG. I'm not asking to argue about the definition of “wrong.” because I end that fight by simply stating that no matter what’s inside all our heads there is a voice that whispers...it's just a matter of whether or not you listen.
#4: Should Rich and Ken be willing, perhaps we can employ a system of recognition for taking “the pledge.” All the folks that take the “oath” will get some kind of a graphic next to their tag-name, every time they post. Consider it an “insensitive” to pledge, as well as a constant reminder of the oath we took.
#5: “What if someone lies and just takes the oath and continues to exceed the rules or even poach???” - - - Well, I got an answer for that. Simple, actually. Consider the very first sentence in this post, that quote of mine. Now, picture yourself on your deathbed, when you are 90 or so. Consider what will go through your head. You think HONOR is a positive thing? Sure, I think it drives a piece of us all. CONSCIENCE? Oh yeah, baby—we got it...that little grasshopper does not go away. INTEGRITY? Yep, we all strive to achieve it, and it's something that stays with us forever, and makes us respect ourselves, or hate ourselves. Consider it a pledge to ourselves, not to the board. The board merely serves as the vehicle for us as the executor of such an oath. All in all, I say sure, people CAN lie and do it, but so what? Who are they really lying to? Not the board—but to themselves. But, even if we do have liars on it...***Does that take away from that fact that YOU are being TRUE?*** And that's what really matters.
#6: On that last topic, I'd like to point out that this pledge should NEVER be used a means for any witch hunts or public persecution. We don't need to be looking around and "eyeing" people like a nut, and we don't need to be PARANOID when someone neglects to leave out a detail that can determine guilt. We will always give benefit of the doubt, and assume that any details left out are favorable. However, that's not to say that if a pledge knowingly does something that it is out of line...well, I imagine Ken and Rich can make decisions like that.
#7: Fish populations change, the world changes for crying out loud, and therefore our "rules" will be subject to change, according to the “State of the Fisheries,” kind of like “State of the Union” address, you know? Nothing is set in stone forever, a fish can overcome an area or be depleted—QUICKLY.
#8: Add to the benefits of a pledge—we can even order shirts or something. People see us out there, ask about it, see the Pierfishing.com logo, and they get on and log in and we get more members. Power by people count, they say.
#9: Perhaps it's just me, but I feel we're onto something here. You see, it's all about self-discipline. Think about it. Regardless of the rules DFG has, they don't have the resources to enforce them. Therefore, it's ALREADY a matter of self-discipline. This pledge simply takes it to another level, that does not deal with red tape or bribed political bs! Our decisions are based on what's best for the fishery, and we consider our enjoyment as secondary to what's right. The DFG is limited, you see. If they go too far, everyone will ignore them. That, in combination with the wrong people administrating things and making biased decisions, gives us what we have today—a DFG with good intentions hindered with too many bruises of bad officials and bad decisions, as well as a lack of funds and manpower to execute the law.
#10: Every situation is different and subject to interpretation. What may seem like one thing can really be another. Being flexible is a must, and being stubborn is a flaw.
So there, I offer ten commandments—just kidding. But seriously—I think this is exciting and I think we're on the verge of setting new standards among our fishing community. Perhaps we can set a trend that will catch on throughout the nation. "A man can dream, can he not?" — stinkyfingers
Posted by Songslinger
The Pledge...must supercede even the Law. Our ethics demand no less. All I Want Is A Fair Fight
Posted by stinkyfingers
Forgot to add one thing. Perhaps a portion of this site can be devoted to this “pledge” thing, where we keep a roster of the pledges, as well as online copy of pamphlet. By the way, I am more than happy to devote 75% of my free time to this. I figure between us all, we've got enough of our own pictures to not have to go around and ask, we've got enough talent to get it done for free, and we've got the spirit and tenacity to go through with it. Folks, Martin Luther had a dream, and this is “Martin” Stinkyfingers' dream...(Ken/Rich: I'm willing to contribute on a financial level.)
Posted by mobilesuit
Wow, guess this is what you call a split in opinion. I don’t know what to say. I think everyone is right Well, I guess the only thing I could do is just express a few of my opinions. I guess the biggest thing that I thought people could gain from this was a bunch of really good knowledge regarding keeping the fish population alive. I’m sure that commercial fisherman are keeping more fish than we could ever imagine catching and depleting the fish population... but I think that doesn’t mean that we as other fisherman should take that into account when we take fish. I was just thinking that making some sort of online pamphlet or whatnot would spread really good information about fish taking, and that this information would make everyone more knowledgeable about fish and their population. Then I was hoping that the majority of fisherman, knowing this information, would take it into account greatly when they keep fish. Basically it’s like those GI JOE cartoon endings. It spreads knowledge, and knowing is half the battle. It’s like them telling kids not to cross the street without checking both sides of the roads because it’s dangerous. Then hopefully the kid will check both sides of the road before he crosses. If the kid didn’t know that it was dangerous, then he'd probably cross it without checking. If the kid knows it dangerous and he doesn’t check the roads, he’s just one of them kids. You know, nothing wrong… just another personality I guess. That basically is how I'd be. If I knew that a 15-in bass was in its prime spawning age, then I definitely would not keep it. But as of now, I have no idea whatsoever the size bass that you really need to leave in the water. I don’t think the regs right now are that knowledgeable. It seems like randomly chosen round #s to me and/or they aren’t too specific. Maybe, that’s just my opinion. As a final note, I just wanted to add that the GI JOE cartoon never went beyond stating knowledge.. it doesn’t really have the power to I guess. But I mean hey, if they had the power to make kids take a pledge or something great but how many loyal viewers would actually take one? Also, would it be good to separate the pledged GI JOE viewers from the unpledged ones? Again, just my opinion. I think everyone had great ideas though. Well whatever happens count me in!
Posted by stinkyfingers
Good point, however I still beg to differ. I didn't consider the negative aspect of the concept of “separation,” as in drawing a line between some of us, and “the rest.” I see your point because it's PR, and it is a valid point...But I still do not agree. In society, when you work hard and earn money you drive a Lexus. That's life. Excerpt from Simpsons-Teacher—“Now class, what do we call it when you treat everyone equally even though they are not?” Class (in unison)—“Communism.” I'm not callin' you a commie, Mobile, just trying to lighten things up a bit here, it just reminded me of that Simpsons’ episode and I thought I would share. I'm simply pointing out that some people DESERVE to be recognized for striving to be the best. (Ever see a bumper sticker that read "My child is an honor student."? Do the other parents complain? No, they just buy ones that read “My kid beat your honor student up.”) After all, aren’t the value of our lives directly proportionate to how well we do at making the best of ourselves?
Posted by stinkyfingers
Consider this quote" All men are created equal
My version is “All men are created equal, but their actions create their inequality” —stinkyfingers, on a roll...
Posted by mobilesuit
Heheh, that’s a funny excerpt. Anyhow I think your idea is a good one. I wasn’t disagreeing with it. I wasn’t disagreeing with anyone’s idea I guess. But yea, it’s PR so its not black and white. Just wanted tell everyone what I thought, since I felt the need to reply.
Posted by PierHead
I'm with you, Stinky!
Posted by stinkyfingers
Thank you, Pierhead! And I want everyone that agrees with this idea to know just how much it really means to me, and I'm sure to a lot of our finned friends as well.
Posted by bigdaddycat
Interesting idea, all good points. I strongly agree with leapin’ about the people who take the pledge already do what is right. I see a lot of time and long posts to follow if we go through with this idea. I think it’s going to take a lot to come up with majority rules regulations. Does that make sense? Not just one person can say “okay 2 Calico's can be kept between 12-14.” I really like the idea of the pamphlet with the fish species and regs and some interpretation of them that would really help. I would also like a list of prime spawn times and size that would be great to help set personal limits. Even if I set all the rules, I still wouldn't take the pledge! I'm not perfect and I never ALWAYS do the right thing. This is a frustration that has been building, it does seem that a lot on the board never do wrong. I'm happy to see some people saying they keep their limits, set by DFG, on occasion. Anyway, back to the right/wrong, for example, I know its wrong and unsafe to travel above the speed limit, however I very seldom abide by it. Now don't get me wrong, I don't go weaving in and out of traffic 20 mph faster than everyone else. I also never make a promise that I can't keep, therefore I will not “pledge” to always follow the board regs. I would rather be seen as a bad person, or a non-pledge member long before I would want to be considered a liar/cheat. There would always be that occasion that I may give away a fish, or use a fish for cut bait, is it wrong...yes, do I know it yes, will I still do it...yes. Don't get me wrong 90%...85% of the time I do right, but not always. I am far from perfect, and I may make enemies by saying so but I strongly doubt that anyone here always does the right thing. Does everyone here recycle, no one here smokes (I do)? Sure no law says we can't smoke, but is it hurting our resources, yep, other people around us, yep. We always have are own little quirks, our likes/dislikes that is what makes this country so beautiful, the fact that we can. I will be more than happy to devote my time and efforts to an information pamphlet. When me and the dude found this board we got blasted for keeping a pregnant smoothhound and trying to use the babies for bait. After someone spoke up, we were finally educated and not blasted. “Knowledge is power” I say educate as many people as we can, but you can keep your pledge. Ken
Posted by stinkyfingers
At least we make up a pamphlet with pictures and such, huh? And educate in it, so that way—at least you are aware of spawns and fragile species. At that point, you can set your own rules for yourself—how about that? You see, my fellow man, you have already denied a pledge that does not yet exist...and what if the pledge turns out to be something that is NOT harsh and rigid, but rather loose in it's constraints—what if it turns out to be nothing more than a pledge to yourself that you will always TRY to do the right thing? Redundant, huh? I know... I understand what you say about never knowing 100% what you will and will not do in the future. Just like right now, I cannot promise you that I will never get drunk again, BUT certain things I can promise you for 100%, the first one that comes to mind is that I will never hit a woman.
Posted by bigdaddycat
I already agreed to the helping out on the pamphlet. As far as a loose pledge, yeah sort of redundant, I've already done that, its certain values I live with everyday. That is in fact thanks to the education from the board. I may catch and give away fish, but not catch and give away over my limit. Nor will I keep a pregnant shark to see if the little ones make good bait. I do like your analogies though, I can guarantee I can't promise not to get drunk, lol, I can promise I won't drive drunk. I also agree on the woman beating, I won't do it.
Posted by baitfish
Guidelines and food for thought...I think that this is great in theory, but I can tell you from experience that once a group starts to organize and make even loose rules, animosity will build. It is inevitable, there will always be some people who are alienated because they feel that this rule or pledge should be one way and others feel it should be another way, it is human nature. Besides any rules or changes we make are subject to Ken’s approval since this is his site. This is something that is going to have to evolve over time and experience.
This is what I suggest...First decide a list of fish that we want to include, I would start with a list of the most commonly caught, endangered, and misidentified fish...
Halibut, WSB, Corbina, Croakers, Calico's, Perch, Rockfish etc...
Some loose guidelines should then be made to help inexperienced anglers know what would most help the fishery. How to identify a fish in spawn, or a pregnant fish, different slot limits etc. The market here is fisherman who don't know any better. If someone is an experienced fisherman and knows the consequences, the chances of that person changing their views is slim. We need to help the anglers out there who do not know what a fish is or how to make an informed decision on whether or not to keep it. Just my opinion...Adam
Posted by The_Dude
The MILITIA…I say hell, lets all just give each other our phone numbers, and when we see someone doing something “WRONG” lets just organize and beat them up? Makes a lot more sense to me. Lol. An info paper would be nice, kind of like the ones that are laminated on sharks and big fish that are in the big sports stores. Pledge stuff is BS. Half the people on this board say one thing here and then do another somewhere else. You can shame me, flame me, or whatever else, but get real, people love to have others think they are good and honest. I for one know what I think is right and wrong, but that doesn't mean someone else does. I give myself “pledges” or whatever every time I grab my pole, get in my car, hell even when I wake up. Does this mean I follow them perfect? No, not always to a tee, but I do my best and I can honestly say that I don't have a problem with mirrors. The militia thing was a joke. Please don't take offense, but if you do oh well, at least I try to give this bored some humor.
BTW, if these info papers come out, it might be a good idea to print them in Spanish, Hangul (Korean), and any other language out here that makes a barrier. I will be glad to give out the papers to people like church tracts. But remember all we can do for real is set the example, and educate them the best we can. I don't think the board is the problem, it is everyone else out there to include the bird punchers, poachers, and mis-guided fish handlers.
Posted by Red Fish
(20) lashes with an Ugly Stik.
Posted by stinkyfingers
How about “recommendations?” Instead of FORCING our rules onto anyone, we can provide them with what the DFG limits are, and then provide a recommended limit for the sensible angler. How about that? I think everyone could accept that. Because after reading your post, and Leapin's and Mobilesuit's, I think this would be the best approach. By the way, Leapin', I know it's within ourselves already, I just thought if we made it a public thing people would catch on...
Posted by baitfish
Sounds good to me...Adam Will work for fish!
Posted by Ken Jones
The Pledge...I just read the posts concerning a pledge and must admit I am a little overwhelmed. I also must admit that I am unable to respond with a good, coherent, well thought out response at this time. I have to think about it.
However, I can add a few observations:
(1) I'd love to see such a pledge work but so far haven't even been able to convince everyone on this board to respect one another. I've always thought debate, even heated debate is good for an increase in knowledge and a possible change in outlook. But basic disrespect, calling people names, and profanity (which admittedly happens only a small part of the time) on the board makes me question how effective something like a pledge would be. True we can ban people from the board but often those are the very people we hope will change their behavior/attitudes.
(2) Based on the comments I've seen I can say with some degree of confidence that the board has served as a good educational tool for many people—both in basic angling knowledge and, perhaps more importantly, in viewing the relationship of the angler to his/her environment. So, we have made a start.
(3) There is some degree of danger whenever a group such as this formalizes itself into a group, begins to write out position papers, pledges, etc. The individual is diminished for the (perceived) greater good of the group. I kind of like the freedom of the board as we have it now. But then again, Lenin felt you needed only a few dedicated (and usually well-armed) individuals to change society (or perhaps, more honestly, to impose their views on society). Reminds me of a little group called the Taliban. We may KNOW that our conservationist views are the ones everyone should follow but how far do we go in imposing them on others? I think if you look back at some of my earlier posts (and they may no longer be in the records we can access) you will see that education was a main goal of this board. Acting as the police, whether policing angler’s actions or thoughts, always seems as a little more dangerous.
(4) To produce a pamphlet takes a lot of time and effort and will require work by more people than just Rich and myself.
(5) Like any new ideas, thought on the subject—combined with a little study, more thought, and extra time for contemplation—will probably produce additional ideas. I suggest we all think about the recent suggestions and come up with some new thoughts. Perhaps a new thread could run starting next Wednesday afternoon. That should give those interested a few days to “think and give flesh to the proposals.” It should be interesting.
Posted by Songslinger
Agreed
Posted by lucy
And furthermore…First, there are already plenty of groups, both for fishing and for conservation, so anybody who feels the need to join a formal “group” has plenty of options. There's no need to try to turn this board, with its wide variety of personalities, skill levels, fishing interests, etc. into a “group.” By their very nature, groups are exclusionary—the moment you try to define what the group IS, you exclude all those who don't fit that definition, or at least make them feel that they're not welcome. One of the things that makes this board the wonderful resource it is the fact that everyone is welcome.
Second, I and the other people of this state pay DFG to manage the fishery and establish fishing regulations. I do not need or want (and will not put up with!) any private individual or group of individuals trying to impose on me his/their notions of what the law “should” be. And I have NO desire to see this board turn into a sanctimonious little group run by a bunch of self-appointed arbiters of "fishing correctness."
As for respect and people getting along and whatnot, the behavior of people on this board is generally extremely good compared to what you see on other boards. I have a friend who does 3-D art and participates in a couple of message boards, and you should see some of the flame wars on those boards! They go on for DAYS and get seriously vicious. Compared to that, the people on this board generally behave very well.
I, myself, would like to see a FAQ on the website that answers the more commonly asked questions about regulations, such as where it's legal to use two poles and where it isn't, and that kind of thing. But please, let's not have any "pledges." Put up a “pledge,” and in no time you'll have people patting themselves on the back for taking it and criticizing those who haven't taken it, and arguing among themselves about who's upholding it better than whom, and ratting each other out for breaking it, and blah-blah-bloody-BLAH. Who needs it?
Posted by shorepounder
I agree with Lucy.'s points...If people want to make a pledge, I wish they would pledge to honor Ken's requests of how to behave on and use this site. Influencing others comes through the information that most provide in their reports and postings. Many on this board that contribute regularly here already talk about catch and release fishing, not trashing where you fish, what fish species they feel are in trouble, how to release a fish, etc. etc. If people really want to become better anglers and conservationists, there's plenty of information on how to do so weekly on this site. It starts with caring. When you care about something you'll find out how to take care of it and then do so. Shorepounder <"))){
There it stood, in a Limboland of disagreement, for quite some time:
yes we should, no we shouldn’t, yes we should....
Eventually however we did come up the Pier Rats’ Code,
a reflection on and wishful way of conducting oneself when visiting a pier.
The Pier Rats’ Code
As responsible anglers, we recognize that our actions should always be governed by what is right—ethically and legally—and we understand and agree that the best ways to accomplish our goals is through personal example and education.
We’re dedicated to preserving the pier rats’ environment in the following ways:
We will work to protect all species of fish. Fish that will be kept for food will be killed in a humane manner. Fish that are to be returned to the water will be handled with care in an attempt to assure their safe return to the water. All species of fish—both sportfish and incidental species—will be given the same respect and treatment. We will attempt to avoid the capture of unwanted or prohibited species.
We will work to improve the environments of the piers themselves as well as the waters around the piers. We will dispose of trash in trash containers, make sure there are no lines or discarded tackle on the pier, and clean up bait from the surface of piers as well as the railings. Where possible, we will assist in the removal of lines and tackle from pilings and pier structures. We will not throw pollutants (of any type) into the waters adjacent to the pier. We will always try to leave the pier as clean or cleaner than when we arrived.
As guardians of the pier environment, we will, to the best of our ability, try to reason with and correct anglers observed to be acting in a manner detrimental to that environment. We will, if necessary, report cases of abuse to the relevant authorities. Observations of illegal fishing methods will be reported to the Fish and Game Department (CalTip). Observations of destruction to the pier will be reported to local agencies.
We will encourage good fishing etiquette. We will learn and obey all fishing regulations. We will treat fellow anglers with courtesy and respect. We will endeavor to educate our fellow anglers in sound and safe angling methods and fishery conservation. —Ken Jones