Asking for help from tec. savvy members here.

Mahigeer

Well-known member
#1
There has been cheating with regarding score card at the recent kid’s derby.

The suspects are the same family that tried before in the past years.

So here is my request for help:

Is there an App that can be used to keep score of anglers in the derby?

The judges would have access to the App with password, but not the parents of anglers.

It would also add scores to make the final counting much faster.



I had suggested using punch in the past, but it was not accepted.

Supposedly a special pen was used, but apparently it did not work.



Any help in suggesting a solution is also appreciated.



Thanks
 

Ken Jones

Administrator
Staff member
#2
Ah, the parents...

I generally use colored pens for the judges at our derbies — red or green. BIC pens in various colors are very inexpensive.

A bigger problem has been how much the parents are allowed to actually be involved in the fishing, everything from baiting the hooks to handling the rods. The youngest kids need help but at some age the kids should be able to basically do everything.

As for an app, I don't think keeping things secret until the end would be a good idea. Transparency is good.

Cheating, whether in a $10,000 bass derby or a kids derby is always a possibility and it's one reason why many people do not like derbies. As for myself, I think you have to balance the good and bad aspcts of the derbies and as far as kid's derbies I think the pluses outweigh the negatives. Of course some parents have a way of messing things up.
 

Mahigeer

Well-known member
#3
I know of another kid who entered and won (by his own admission) by lying about his age. He was an experience angler, but his dad (family) would catch live bait and hook on a second rod ready for him to exchange and keep on fishing. He caught many a short bass. This year we put a limit of 3" min. size to prevent using bait as catch.

Colored pens are easy to obtain by people who are willing to cheat.

The Derby will continue as the benefits are many, but we are looking to close the "loopholes" and keep the scoring honest.

The App could be used in addition to the score card for transparency.
 
#4
you can use like gold colored pens like silver, silver blue, or gold markers or even neon colors, its possible to make an app, since you mark the cards and give it back to the participant, always a chance of forgery. have certain amount of colors out and to certain judges, the names and their corresponding colors. might be a way. punch is good, but maintaining the puncher might be hard. maybe giving the participant # only and using that on the app, but then only one machine will be readily available to hold all the counts.

or possible to have runners, take the card to one person who take down all the counts and to have several runners. one person stationed in the center of the pier to take fish counts, the runner would bring the card to the main station and that person will keep a record of all the fish that is caught. then the runner run back to the participant and returns the card



sorta like Keno.
 

Mahigeer

Well-known member
#5
The system has to be simple since there maybe new volunteers every year.

I still think the special punches are the easiest. After last year, I even designed a new round score card that made the scoring and afterward counting much easier. But the cost of printing round thick paper (about $250.00) was declined.

I got one year to come up with a solution.
 
#6
do you have the die format??!? I have access to a die cutter, just need to make a die for cutting round circles, should be no problem. paper might be the issue but cutting the circle out wont be.
 

Red Fish

Well-known member
#8
There has been cheating with regarding score card at the recent kid’s derby.

The suspects are the same family that tried before in the past years.

So here is my request for help:

Is there an App that can be used to keep score of anglers in the derby?

The judges would have access to the App with password, but not the parents of anglers.

It would also add scores to make the final counting much faster.



I had suggested using punch in the past, but it was not accepted.

Supposedly a special pen was used, but apparently it did not work.

Wow, that’s terrible that someone would actually do that at a kid’s derby. I would think just a red pen like a teacher uses.
But, every entry I make on derby cards I sign my name or initial it (and if they could replicate my signature with any accuracy, they would be skilled).
I could see an app being used in this 21st century. But it seems like you would need to enter data at the registration desk (that shouldn’t be too hard to do). And each judge would need a tablet or phone with the app.



Any help in suggesting a solution is also appreciated.



Thanks
 
#9
Yea, some parents man... I remember meeting up at a kids derby at Imperial Beach Pier a few years back. I tell you, that event was chaos. We had no idea what was going on and I guess a bunch of families that had gotten there earlier had live fish already in their coolers even before the derby started. They’d just pull em out and pretend they just got them. It’s like they were professional cheaters. They weren’t locals. I’ve never seen those people before. Pure disaster.

The large fish didn’t show until 30 minutes after the derby was over. So my friend's kids still had a lot of fun getting some solid hookups on some good size fish.

On a side note, I overheard the local kids disregard the derby. They wanted to go fish with my older brother at the end of the pier because he catches BIG fish. Lol Hilarious!

How about a numbering system assigned to each caught fish. Where you give out laminated numbered cards per fish to the family and have two people record the size n type of fish, plus family name. Same family last name? Just add 12345. Maybe incorporate pics in the system. Have the parents take pics of their kid with the fish and number as proof (and memories), in case somebody tries to get sneaky with the numbering system.
 
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Mahigeer

Well-known member
#10
It needs to be simple enough that anybody who volunteers for the first time, can learn to do it fast.

This particular family is on the radar. The kid/s will eventually be too old to participate.

I am trying to figure out a simple, yet effective and cheap way of doing the scoring.

The ultimate would how bass pro circuit does it. But that is beyond their budget.


Thanks everyone for the input.
 

Ken Jones

Administrator
Staff member
#11
KISS = Keep It Short and Simple

I'm not sure what cards you are using down there but it's not that hard to (1) use colored pens to mark the score cards [and if necessary you can change colors each year], (2) as a fish is caught it is listed by the judge along with its points and their initials, (3) if necessary, you could also have them mark the time of each catch.

In my experience most judges are people who just want to help out and they just want the kids to have fun. As such, they may or may not have done it before. A five minute review of all rules and scoring along with tips on cheating should be done at the start of each derby (or have a print out discussing "how to" along with any concerns to look for). Given the small size of the Shelter Island Pier it should be easy to spot families that are cheating and to stop it. Give a warning and tell them if it happens again they are disqualified.

Remember that there are few sure-cut, 100% guaranteed ways to prevent cheating. In addition, I hate to see the poor actions of a very small number of families (1-3%?), make it over complicated for the rest of the families and judges.
 

Ken Jones

Administrator
Staff member
#12
BTW, the bigger problem I see at these derbies are the adults and kids with extensive experience and skills versus a lot of parents and kids who are fishing for the first time and know very little about what they are doing.

Typically we rig up the rods and reels and give them bait but once the derby starts they are somewhat on their own. What would be better would be two groups of adults — a group of judges and a group of roving anglers who jump in and help the newbies when they see they are doing something wrong. I talked to a guy the other day who was fishing and whose daughter had not had a bite. He had never fished on a pier, was using fairly heavy tackle, and about size 3/0 hooks with a big chunk of bait. Given the number of jacksmelt and small bass being caught I convinced him to switch over to smaller hooks and smaller baits — and they started to catch some fish. Unfortunately, I was running around and did not get to do that with more of the newbies but I am sure simple incorrect techniques were why many of the kids did not catch a fish.

I sometimes wonder if there should be two categores — newbies and experienced? It would give each group a chance to win a prize.
 

Mahigeer

Well-known member
#13
All good points, and thanks for your suggestions.

As the long time members here know, this past derby was not my first "rodeo" as the saying goes.

We have always tried to balance the winning challenge (competition) with kids having fun.
Most important is not to make a scene and have the kids be upset.


I need to convince the organizers to invest in some items, like special punch to reduce and even eliminate "over scoring".

ED, who came and helped has offered to write a program that may be used. I will talk to him.

He is the generous guy who has provided (free of charge) a photo hosting website on another fishing website.

Thanks to him, I do not use Photobucket and am able to post pictures with my reports.