Warning: Some racism involved?
September 29, 2002
To: PFIC Message Board
From: BigUnInDaBoat
SC pier and skiff report...more skiff, pier’s dead
[Edited]
BEAUTIFUL DAY best conditions I have been out on yet ... Ok here is the deal. I know a lot of Asian cultures rely heavily on fish as a part of their diet. But why is it time and time again (not only on the pier but also on the skiffs) does it seem that the majority of limited English speaking Asian anglers are also poachers? I saw a group of three keeping dozens of perch along with ANY other fish they could catch, anchovies, croakers and perch, not to mention the ling. Is it a LANGUAGE barrier? If you live here you should HAVE to be able to speak the English language. I think its time for the DFG to spend another $X amount of dollars printing the REGULATIONS in every Language in the world OR TO START PATROLLING AND FINING THESE POACHERS. If not then WHY should I throw back lings that are less then 1/8th" short?
Sorry for the rant, and no I am NOT singling out Asians...I JUST CALL IT LIKE I SEE IT. Peace BUIDB
Posted by fisher23
I agree strongly, there should be copies of regulations in all languages. It always seems to be the people who DON'T know English who tend to keep undersized fish. I think they know but use it to their advantage of not knowing English so it looks like they don’t know better...just a thought. fish on
Posted by break_the_bank
And Asians killed off all the buffalos too!
Posted by cal5525
Oh that makes it ok?
Posted by pEsCaDoR5312
Didn’t BUIDB just say...that he wasn’t singling Asians out or anyone for that matter? Then why are you, BTB? That sounds a little more than a politically incorrect mistake made innocently as part of a fishing report. WHY ISNT HE GETTING CRAP FOR IT? I think I need a break.
don't bother me... I'm fishin. <*)))>=<| pEsCaDoR5312
Posted by pescare
You could tattoo the regulations in the native language on every fisherman and poaching wouldn't be reduced one bit. I'm a firm believer that most people who poach all the time (as opposed to those who truly make mistakes) know exactly what they are doing. They poach because they know there is virtually no chance that they will be caught. The only answer is to step up enforcement, and there is no indication that it will happen any time soon. Ed
Posted by typewriter2000
Some poachers really doesn't know better, I have personally met and taught a few poachers about the rules and the next time I saw them, they really were following the rules that I had explained. At least that is what I saw.
Posted by Red Fish
That is my experience too. True, there should be some type of formal test or information administered before someone is able to fish or given a fishing license. Most people on this board speak on this issue based on personal encounters on their individual fishing trips. This is a way that many people derive many of their personal convictions (from personal experience). With that said, personally, I have seen poachers (one's that I thought knew what they were doing and others who I was sure were unaware of their errors) get busted eventually by D.F.G. Both parties "learned" after being approached by the D.F.G. and both parties are no longer poaching (at least in the area where they were accosted by D.F.G.)
Posted by caffeinehigh
This may help…I tend to think we are all at fault here. I'm sure there are English-speaking anglers that poach too, along with non-English speaking anglers. If we print regs on different languages, I'm sure 'some' of the non-English speaking anglers will start following the rules. Also, it is our duty to share this info to the ones that don’t follow the rules. If we see someone taking in undersized fish, politely inform them. If they don’t listen, try calling DFG. Do what we can do. That's my 2 cents...
Posted by flyaway182000
Fishing is a fun sport and I do agree with all you guys that some fishermen out there fish for food to put on the table. I think that this country has kept everybody fed so I don’t think that food here is the issue. For those fishermen out there who keep all the fish that they catch despite their size, I hope you will meet a DFG and hope you will get a big fine for your greediness. Stop being greedy and keep the environment safe people. Keep the fishes there for our future generation to have some fun too.
Posted by corbinaman1
DFG Enforcement Is The Key! I don't like to generalize; however, most of the “Non-English” speaking fishermen I see do keep everything they catch. Some may know what they are doing, but the language barrier is a big part of the problem.
Posted by BigUnInDaBoat
This is what I was afraid of. I speak of what I saw. I have MANY, MANY Asian friends, believe me or not. Listen, a fisherman is a fisherman and a poacher is a poacher—everyone has excuses now a days, point being you don’t drive without knowing the rules...do you? So why fish and take what you don’t need? There is a huge language barrier; I don’t blame them for taking fish that they can use. I have a problem taking fish that are not legal size bro. It’s great how much of an anti-poaching family we have here, let’s not turn it racial. Peace BUIDB
Posted by Mikey
Down here (San Diego) it's pretty amazing to hear, say, an Asian or Mexican speak perfect English, but then when you confront them about poaching or the illegal activities they are participating in, how quickly they forget how to speak it...just an observation. I'm sure it goes for all who don't speak English “too” well. Mike
Posted by COPENHAGEN_FLU
My 2 cents…there's a line between legality and morality. I don't believe in catching anything just to watch it die or go to waste. Therefore it’s hard to dog someone who is catching food for the table. The Department of Fish and Game is designed to manage all species from anchovies to marlin and to guarantee their survival as a species and I back them 100%. But with the rising costs in California, morally I can't be pi….off at someone catching undersized fish for survival. Yes, it does upset me as an angler to see someone keep undersized fish, but you have to understand the individual's circumstance, .I don't mean to ruffle feathers, I just wanted to shed a different light on the subject. mike
Posted by kevinlai
Posting regulation will help…Most of the public piers do not post the limit and sizes of the fish that people can keep or have to be released. Some are common sense such as halibut and barred sand bass. There are several other kinds that have size limits but it’s difficult to remember them all. It is true that non-English native speakers, especially Asian and Hispanic, are less likely to catch and release because they grow up eating fish. They can eat fish both big and small. In Asia, most people keep everything they can catch. I hate to waste any fish that I do not eat.
Posted by lucy
Subsistence fishing = B.S. The whole idea that anybody HAS to fish to “put food on the table” is B.S. and I'm tired of seeing it mentioned as an excuse for poaching. No one HAS to fish to “put food on the table.” For one thing, we have countless public and private charity programs to ensure that anyone who needs food can get it—from federal food stamps and commodities distribution down to local church soup kitchens. Second, fishing is the most cost IN-effective method of obtaining food there is. Anybody who is genuinely impoverished and having to squeeze pennies is NOT going to be wasting what little money he has on bait and tackle; instead, he's going to spend that money on food. And if he has no job, he's going to be spending his time looking for work, not hanging out on a pier. Now, granted, there are plenty of bums who scrounge or steal fishing equipment and hang out on piers catching everything they can in hope of selling it—which makes them doubly poachers. But what do you think they're going to spend the money on? Food? No, food they can get for free at any of a dozen charities. Any cash they get, they'll spend on booze, cigarettes, or other drugs. The idea that they should be allowed to poach to support their bum lifestyle is absurd. Finally, EVEN IF someone is out there fishing to feed his “hungry children”—and I dispute the statement that anybody really is in that position—he STILL isn't entitled to break the law, especially in view of the fact that he can avail himself of dozens of other methods of feeding his rug-rats.
Bottom line: there is no one, absolutely NO ONE, who poaches because he HAS to. Every single poacher you see out there is doing it because he WANTS to. Either he doesn't know the law, or he doesn't obey it. Period!
Posted by dunbarton dave
Well said Lucy.
Posted by pikachu
Anyone remember seeing a nice, old homeless guy, Brent(?), who lived on the Pacifica Pier last year? He had 3 crab rings and was always sleeping covered in his sleeping bag 3/4 ways out on the pier during the summer. I’m not gonna say if he poached or not but he needed whatever he could catch. Poor guy, haven’t seen him at all this year...
Posted by Predator
I knew a guy in Antioch that was poor, too. And he would break into people's houses and steal things and sell them. He would also rob kids trying to buy drugs. He would also cheat and steal and rob anything he could just to get some money, for rent, for food, etc. I'm not gonna say if he killed or not, but he needed whatever he got. Poor guy, huh? What if he broke into your house? Would you still sympathize with him? SORRY PEOPLE!!!! Some homeless folks CHOOSE to live like that. Rather than deal with responsibilities or answer to a boss, they want 100% freedom. So, me and you and the working "sucker" should pay the price because HE wants to live it EASY. He.. no.
Posted by lucy
Oh, yeah, I feel so SORRY for them...NOT. Down the street from me is a little restaurant. It's owned and run by a man and woman who came here about 25 years ago from, I think, Cambodia, or maybe Hong Kong. When they arrived, they had no education, had no money, had no skills, and could not read, write, or speak English. They went to work at whatever menial jobs they could get—the man in a restaurant doing scut-work, the woman doing house-cleaning. They worked as much as they could and saved their money. The man learned everything he could about restaurant management and worked his way up to chef. When they had saved up enough money, they opened a tiny hole-in-the-wall restaurant, and then they spent the next several years working 16- to 18-hour days, SEVEN DAYS A WEEK, to make the restaurant succeed. When a business next door closed, they took over the space and expanded their restaurant—and continued working 16- and 18-hour days, seven days a week, year after year. Eventually, they opened another restaurant, and then another. And they're still there, working 16- and 18-hour days, seven days a week, year in and year out.
Around the block from me is another restaurant run by a couple from Korea. Very much the same story. They've been there 20 years now, working 14- and 16-hour days, seven days a week. They have three sons who are in medical school.
Around the corner is a little dressmaking shop owned by a woman who came here about 25 years ago from Vietnam. She, too, worked for years to save up to open her little shop, and she's worked long hours, six days a week, ever since to make a success of it.
Look at them... and then go to a soup kitchen or anywhere else the "homeless" hang out, and listen to all the “hard-luck” tales and sob stories. This guy here lost his job years ago when the company he worked for went out of business, and he somehow has just never managed to find another job that would pay him what he thinks he's worth... and oh, boo-hoo. That guy there never really had a chance because his father, who was paying for his college, died before he finished, so he had to drop out and go to work, but that was so awful that he started doing drugs, and oh, sob-sob. This other guy over there wanted to be a writer, but couldn't find anybody who would pay for his incoherent scribblings, and so what choice did he have but to become a drunk?--oh, boo-hoo. And then there's poor old Joe—helluva nice guy, his wife up and left him one day and he just never got over it and has been a bum ever since, whimper whimper.
Scratch the average bum, and what you find is a self-pitying loser who has spent his entire life looking for excuses rather than opportunities, making bad decisions and refusing to learn a thing from his own mistakes, blaming his “misfortunes” on anything and everything but his own stupidity and laziness, and refusing to take responsibility for ANYthing.
And even worse—99.999% of them were born right here in this country, which means that even if they came from poor families (which most of them didn't) and even if they had dysfunctional or abusive parents or whatever, they STILL started out way ahead of the immigrants mentioned above... and if they are now living on the street and sleeping in doorways and so on, it really and truly is their own damned fault.
Posted by Predator
It is of their own WILL, Lucy. Surprise. Most homeless “bums” out there CHOOSE that life. Rather than answer to a boss, they have 100% freedom and 0% responsibility to society. They are selfish. --> BUM, unhealthy balance, all focused on his freedom without wanting to contribute to society but expecting something from them.
A normal member of society has a balance of 50% responsibilities (rent, job, kids, etc), and 50% freedom (after work, on weekend, etc.) -->normal person, healthy balance.
A workaholic contributes TOO much to society and not enough to himself. 100% responsibilities (work, work, work) and 0% freedom gives all to society and nothing to himself. --> WORKOHOLIC, unhealthy. Give too much of himself and doesn't treat himself.
Posted by Predator
Can I live in your house, please? Come on, I can't pay my rent. So, I'm going to break into your house, and eat your food. Before I go, I'll steal your money, too. That's ok with you, right? You said "but you have to understand the individual's circumstance". Alright then, you should understand mine. I have no job, no money, but I'm hungry. I'm coming to your house to STEAL YOUR STUFF. After all, aren't you sympathetic to MY needs also? Or do your sympathies only extend to the poachers? (Disclaimer: I'm not REALLY going to his house, for the buffoons that like to take things literally.) “PREDATOR, a man of many words.”
Posted by COPENHAGEN_FLU
Look, this has gotten blown way out of proportion. I don't know how the topic of keeping undersized fish got turned into, breaking into someone's house. The only point I was making was if I see a family of people keeping some undersized fish, I'm not gonna go crazy on them. I do not support poaching, it is illegal. but keeping an undersized fish shouldn't be punishable by death like you all make it sound. In fact I've tried to call CALTIP a couple of times on people fishing illegally, but it is a recording and there's no way someone could get down there in time to bust anyone. I’m sorry we disagree. mike
Posted by Predator
Cope...Man, we don't disagree that much. Breaking into a house because you're hungry IS a crime. Poaching because you're hungry IS a crime. Neither one is punishable by death, unless they're in my house when I'm home and I "fear for my life" and put 000buck into them. Now - the disagreement you and I may have rests on one thing only—whether or not being hungry or poor should be an EXCUSE to commit crime, and it would be an emotional justification, not a logical one. If you choose that YES, it's ok for hungry people to steal, poach, whatever, then we disagree. I feel everyone should follow the law, regardless of their circumstances. The only emotional exception to that I take is murder, when a parent kills a molester or rapist of their child. I think that is TERRIFIC. “PREDATOR, a man of many words.”
Posted by Songslinger
Missing A Key Component In This Discussion. Poaching occurs because there is a market to support it. The alleged subsistence fishing is overstated, really. Most people who fish to feed themselves work well within the rules. Storage is a factor for them and that is why they fish every day. But there are those who fish to support themselves financially and their strategy is "more is better." It's probably a better idea to target the stores that buy illegal fish. If there is no market available, or if the risk seems too high, then people will tone done poaching. I'm not saying don't enforce the law individually—we all want that. But law enforcement likes a bigger bust to make it worthwhile to extend resources and manpower. If you really want to put a dent in the black market, then go to fresh fish markets. You will see illegal fish in many of them. Mention it to the proprietor, politely. Stir things up gently. And call the authorities.
Posted by Predator
Well done, BigUn. I stand by you 100% on what you say. “I” am an immigrant myself. “I” had to learn English, so I shed no tears for anyone. Cry me a river, NO EXCUSES!!! While others come here, and go out and play (read as rape our resources), my family stayed home and practiced pronouncing words like “three.” I will not be emotionally persuaded to grant any excuses for ANY culture, or ANY immigrants. I am an immigrant, so nobody can tell me I'm being racist. To them I say: My family has no excuses, what are yours? “PREDATOR, a man of many words.”
September 29, 2002
To: PFIC Message Board
From: BigUnInDaBoat
SC pier and skiff report...more skiff, pier’s dead
[Edited]
BEAUTIFUL DAY best conditions I have been out on yet ... Ok here is the deal. I know a lot of Asian cultures rely heavily on fish as a part of their diet. But why is it time and time again (not only on the pier but also on the skiffs) does it seem that the majority of limited English speaking Asian anglers are also poachers? I saw a group of three keeping dozens of perch along with ANY other fish they could catch, anchovies, croakers and perch, not to mention the ling. Is it a LANGUAGE barrier? If you live here you should HAVE to be able to speak the English language. I think its time for the DFG to spend another $X amount of dollars printing the REGULATIONS in every Language in the world OR TO START PATROLLING AND FINING THESE POACHERS. If not then WHY should I throw back lings that are less then 1/8th" short?
Sorry for the rant, and no I am NOT singling out Asians...I JUST CALL IT LIKE I SEE IT. Peace BUIDB
Posted by fisher23
I agree strongly, there should be copies of regulations in all languages. It always seems to be the people who DON'T know English who tend to keep undersized fish. I think they know but use it to their advantage of not knowing English so it looks like they don’t know better...just a thought. fish on
Posted by break_the_bank
And Asians killed off all the buffalos too!
Posted by cal5525
Oh that makes it ok?
Posted by pEsCaDoR5312
Didn’t BUIDB just say...that he wasn’t singling Asians out or anyone for that matter? Then why are you, BTB? That sounds a little more than a politically incorrect mistake made innocently as part of a fishing report. WHY ISNT HE GETTING CRAP FOR IT? I think I need a break.
don't bother me... I'm fishin. <*)))>=<| pEsCaDoR5312
Posted by pescare
You could tattoo the regulations in the native language on every fisherman and poaching wouldn't be reduced one bit. I'm a firm believer that most people who poach all the time (as opposed to those who truly make mistakes) know exactly what they are doing. They poach because they know there is virtually no chance that they will be caught. The only answer is to step up enforcement, and there is no indication that it will happen any time soon. Ed
Posted by typewriter2000
Some poachers really doesn't know better, I have personally met and taught a few poachers about the rules and the next time I saw them, they really were following the rules that I had explained. At least that is what I saw.
Posted by Red Fish
That is my experience too. True, there should be some type of formal test or information administered before someone is able to fish or given a fishing license. Most people on this board speak on this issue based on personal encounters on their individual fishing trips. This is a way that many people derive many of their personal convictions (from personal experience). With that said, personally, I have seen poachers (one's that I thought knew what they were doing and others who I was sure were unaware of their errors) get busted eventually by D.F.G. Both parties "learned" after being approached by the D.F.G. and both parties are no longer poaching (at least in the area where they were accosted by D.F.G.)
Posted by caffeinehigh
This may help…I tend to think we are all at fault here. I'm sure there are English-speaking anglers that poach too, along with non-English speaking anglers. If we print regs on different languages, I'm sure 'some' of the non-English speaking anglers will start following the rules. Also, it is our duty to share this info to the ones that don’t follow the rules. If we see someone taking in undersized fish, politely inform them. If they don’t listen, try calling DFG. Do what we can do. That's my 2 cents...
Posted by flyaway182000
Fishing is a fun sport and I do agree with all you guys that some fishermen out there fish for food to put on the table. I think that this country has kept everybody fed so I don’t think that food here is the issue. For those fishermen out there who keep all the fish that they catch despite their size, I hope you will meet a DFG and hope you will get a big fine for your greediness. Stop being greedy and keep the environment safe people. Keep the fishes there for our future generation to have some fun too.
Posted by corbinaman1
DFG Enforcement Is The Key! I don't like to generalize; however, most of the “Non-English” speaking fishermen I see do keep everything they catch. Some may know what they are doing, but the language barrier is a big part of the problem.
Posted by BigUnInDaBoat
This is what I was afraid of. I speak of what I saw. I have MANY, MANY Asian friends, believe me or not. Listen, a fisherman is a fisherman and a poacher is a poacher—everyone has excuses now a days, point being you don’t drive without knowing the rules...do you? So why fish and take what you don’t need? There is a huge language barrier; I don’t blame them for taking fish that they can use. I have a problem taking fish that are not legal size bro. It’s great how much of an anti-poaching family we have here, let’s not turn it racial. Peace BUIDB
Posted by Mikey
Down here (San Diego) it's pretty amazing to hear, say, an Asian or Mexican speak perfect English, but then when you confront them about poaching or the illegal activities they are participating in, how quickly they forget how to speak it...just an observation. I'm sure it goes for all who don't speak English “too” well. Mike
Posted by COPENHAGEN_FLU
My 2 cents…there's a line between legality and morality. I don't believe in catching anything just to watch it die or go to waste. Therefore it’s hard to dog someone who is catching food for the table. The Department of Fish and Game is designed to manage all species from anchovies to marlin and to guarantee their survival as a species and I back them 100%. But with the rising costs in California, morally I can't be pi….off at someone catching undersized fish for survival. Yes, it does upset me as an angler to see someone keep undersized fish, but you have to understand the individual's circumstance, .I don't mean to ruffle feathers, I just wanted to shed a different light on the subject. mike
Posted by kevinlai
Posting regulation will help…Most of the public piers do not post the limit and sizes of the fish that people can keep or have to be released. Some are common sense such as halibut and barred sand bass. There are several other kinds that have size limits but it’s difficult to remember them all. It is true that non-English native speakers, especially Asian and Hispanic, are less likely to catch and release because they grow up eating fish. They can eat fish both big and small. In Asia, most people keep everything they can catch. I hate to waste any fish that I do not eat.
Posted by lucy
Subsistence fishing = B.S. The whole idea that anybody HAS to fish to “put food on the table” is B.S. and I'm tired of seeing it mentioned as an excuse for poaching. No one HAS to fish to “put food on the table.” For one thing, we have countless public and private charity programs to ensure that anyone who needs food can get it—from federal food stamps and commodities distribution down to local church soup kitchens. Second, fishing is the most cost IN-effective method of obtaining food there is. Anybody who is genuinely impoverished and having to squeeze pennies is NOT going to be wasting what little money he has on bait and tackle; instead, he's going to spend that money on food. And if he has no job, he's going to be spending his time looking for work, not hanging out on a pier. Now, granted, there are plenty of bums who scrounge or steal fishing equipment and hang out on piers catching everything they can in hope of selling it—which makes them doubly poachers. But what do you think they're going to spend the money on? Food? No, food they can get for free at any of a dozen charities. Any cash they get, they'll spend on booze, cigarettes, or other drugs. The idea that they should be allowed to poach to support their bum lifestyle is absurd. Finally, EVEN IF someone is out there fishing to feed his “hungry children”—and I dispute the statement that anybody really is in that position—he STILL isn't entitled to break the law, especially in view of the fact that he can avail himself of dozens of other methods of feeding his rug-rats.
Bottom line: there is no one, absolutely NO ONE, who poaches because he HAS to. Every single poacher you see out there is doing it because he WANTS to. Either he doesn't know the law, or he doesn't obey it. Period!
Posted by dunbarton dave
Well said Lucy.
Posted by pikachu
Anyone remember seeing a nice, old homeless guy, Brent(?), who lived on the Pacifica Pier last year? He had 3 crab rings and was always sleeping covered in his sleeping bag 3/4 ways out on the pier during the summer. I’m not gonna say if he poached or not but he needed whatever he could catch. Poor guy, haven’t seen him at all this year...
Posted by Predator
I knew a guy in Antioch that was poor, too. And he would break into people's houses and steal things and sell them. He would also rob kids trying to buy drugs. He would also cheat and steal and rob anything he could just to get some money, for rent, for food, etc. I'm not gonna say if he killed or not, but he needed whatever he got. Poor guy, huh? What if he broke into your house? Would you still sympathize with him? SORRY PEOPLE!!!! Some homeless folks CHOOSE to live like that. Rather than deal with responsibilities or answer to a boss, they want 100% freedom. So, me and you and the working "sucker" should pay the price because HE wants to live it EASY. He.. no.
Posted by lucy
Oh, yeah, I feel so SORRY for them...NOT. Down the street from me is a little restaurant. It's owned and run by a man and woman who came here about 25 years ago from, I think, Cambodia, or maybe Hong Kong. When they arrived, they had no education, had no money, had no skills, and could not read, write, or speak English. They went to work at whatever menial jobs they could get—the man in a restaurant doing scut-work, the woman doing house-cleaning. They worked as much as they could and saved their money. The man learned everything he could about restaurant management and worked his way up to chef. When they had saved up enough money, they opened a tiny hole-in-the-wall restaurant, and then they spent the next several years working 16- to 18-hour days, SEVEN DAYS A WEEK, to make the restaurant succeed. When a business next door closed, they took over the space and expanded their restaurant—and continued working 16- and 18-hour days, seven days a week, year after year. Eventually, they opened another restaurant, and then another. And they're still there, working 16- and 18-hour days, seven days a week, year in and year out.
Around the block from me is another restaurant run by a couple from Korea. Very much the same story. They've been there 20 years now, working 14- and 16-hour days, seven days a week. They have three sons who are in medical school.
Around the corner is a little dressmaking shop owned by a woman who came here about 25 years ago from Vietnam. She, too, worked for years to save up to open her little shop, and she's worked long hours, six days a week, ever since to make a success of it.
Look at them... and then go to a soup kitchen or anywhere else the "homeless" hang out, and listen to all the “hard-luck” tales and sob stories. This guy here lost his job years ago when the company he worked for went out of business, and he somehow has just never managed to find another job that would pay him what he thinks he's worth... and oh, boo-hoo. That guy there never really had a chance because his father, who was paying for his college, died before he finished, so he had to drop out and go to work, but that was so awful that he started doing drugs, and oh, sob-sob. This other guy over there wanted to be a writer, but couldn't find anybody who would pay for his incoherent scribblings, and so what choice did he have but to become a drunk?--oh, boo-hoo. And then there's poor old Joe—helluva nice guy, his wife up and left him one day and he just never got over it and has been a bum ever since, whimper whimper.
Scratch the average bum, and what you find is a self-pitying loser who has spent his entire life looking for excuses rather than opportunities, making bad decisions and refusing to learn a thing from his own mistakes, blaming his “misfortunes” on anything and everything but his own stupidity and laziness, and refusing to take responsibility for ANYthing.
And even worse—99.999% of them were born right here in this country, which means that even if they came from poor families (which most of them didn't) and even if they had dysfunctional or abusive parents or whatever, they STILL started out way ahead of the immigrants mentioned above... and if they are now living on the street and sleeping in doorways and so on, it really and truly is their own damned fault.
Posted by Predator
It is of their own WILL, Lucy. Surprise. Most homeless “bums” out there CHOOSE that life. Rather than answer to a boss, they have 100% freedom and 0% responsibility to society. They are selfish. --> BUM, unhealthy balance, all focused on his freedom without wanting to contribute to society but expecting something from them.
A normal member of society has a balance of 50% responsibilities (rent, job, kids, etc), and 50% freedom (after work, on weekend, etc.) -->normal person, healthy balance.
A workaholic contributes TOO much to society and not enough to himself. 100% responsibilities (work, work, work) and 0% freedom gives all to society and nothing to himself. --> WORKOHOLIC, unhealthy. Give too much of himself and doesn't treat himself.
Posted by Predator
Can I live in your house, please? Come on, I can't pay my rent. So, I'm going to break into your house, and eat your food. Before I go, I'll steal your money, too. That's ok with you, right? You said "but you have to understand the individual's circumstance". Alright then, you should understand mine. I have no job, no money, but I'm hungry. I'm coming to your house to STEAL YOUR STUFF. After all, aren't you sympathetic to MY needs also? Or do your sympathies only extend to the poachers? (Disclaimer: I'm not REALLY going to his house, for the buffoons that like to take things literally.) “PREDATOR, a man of many words.”
Posted by COPENHAGEN_FLU
Look, this has gotten blown way out of proportion. I don't know how the topic of keeping undersized fish got turned into, breaking into someone's house. The only point I was making was if I see a family of people keeping some undersized fish, I'm not gonna go crazy on them. I do not support poaching, it is illegal. but keeping an undersized fish shouldn't be punishable by death like you all make it sound. In fact I've tried to call CALTIP a couple of times on people fishing illegally, but it is a recording and there's no way someone could get down there in time to bust anyone. I’m sorry we disagree. mike
Posted by Predator
Cope...Man, we don't disagree that much. Breaking into a house because you're hungry IS a crime. Poaching because you're hungry IS a crime. Neither one is punishable by death, unless they're in my house when I'm home and I "fear for my life" and put 000buck into them. Now - the disagreement you and I may have rests on one thing only—whether or not being hungry or poor should be an EXCUSE to commit crime, and it would be an emotional justification, not a logical one. If you choose that YES, it's ok for hungry people to steal, poach, whatever, then we disagree. I feel everyone should follow the law, regardless of their circumstances. The only emotional exception to that I take is murder, when a parent kills a molester or rapist of their child. I think that is TERRIFIC. “PREDATOR, a man of many words.”
Posted by Songslinger
Missing A Key Component In This Discussion. Poaching occurs because there is a market to support it. The alleged subsistence fishing is overstated, really. Most people who fish to feed themselves work well within the rules. Storage is a factor for them and that is why they fish every day. But there are those who fish to support themselves financially and their strategy is "more is better." It's probably a better idea to target the stores that buy illegal fish. If there is no market available, or if the risk seems too high, then people will tone done poaching. I'm not saying don't enforce the law individually—we all want that. But law enforcement likes a bigger bust to make it worthwhile to extend resources and manpower. If you really want to put a dent in the black market, then go to fresh fish markets. You will see illegal fish in many of them. Mention it to the proprietor, politely. Stir things up gently. And call the authorities.
Posted by Predator
Well done, BigUn. I stand by you 100% on what you say. “I” am an immigrant myself. “I” had to learn English, so I shed no tears for anyone. Cry me a river, NO EXCUSES!!! While others come here, and go out and play (read as rape our resources), my family stayed home and practiced pronouncing words like “three.” I will not be emotionally persuaded to grant any excuses for ANY culture, or ANY immigrants. I am an immigrant, so nobody can tell me I'm being racist. To them I say: My family has no excuses, what are yours? “PREDATOR, a man of many words.”